Gay Military Is A Problem?

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Pro77

[Solitary]

For opponents of the ban against homosexuals serving openly in the military, the steps by Congress this week to repeal the policy, known as “don’t ask, don’t tell,” were a major victory.

But now they are girding for what may be an equally difficult task: the transition to a force where straight and openly gay servicemen and women live, work and fight alongside one other.

Some homosexuals in the military say they are worried about how that process will work and whether they will be treated differently if they publicly acknowledge their sexual orientation.

Now consider this, and notice how many holes there are in the arguments against gays in the military----on a side note---where do you think the term corporal came from?


 All the rest is from quotations: Spartans, Ancient Greeks, and Romans all had no sexual orientation taboos. to them, homosexuality was just as normal as heterosexuality. So, men often had homosexual relationships with each other. (it was seen as normal).

though, since the population was small at the time, all men were expected to have a wife and family only for the goal of reproducing. this is what makes it hard to know whether or not someone in those times was "straight", or "gay". MANY DID have homosexual relationships.

Many Roman (male) Aristocrats and royalty were known to have male sex slaves.

It is known that Homosexuality in the Roman and Greek armies was accepted and even encouraged. Generals thought that the closer the soldiers bonds, the more likely they would be to sacrifice themselves, and the harder they would work to protect each other; and they would be able to work as a unit better. The Roman and Greek Armies were the best of their time.

The "Sacred Band of Thebes" was a military unit made of hand-picked homosexuals. "The Sacred Band of Thebes was a troop of picked soldiers, numbering 150 age-structured pairs which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC. it played a crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra.

Plutarch reports that the Sacred Band consisted of homosexual couples and the reason was that lovers would fight more fiercely and more cohesively at each other's sides than would strangers with no bonds. So according to Plutarch (in his Life of Pelopidas), the inspiration for the Band's formation came from Plato’s Symposium, wherein the character Phaedrus remarks:

"And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?"


now, what does this have to do with Spartans, well-- the Spartans were very similar to the Greeks, so most likely, as the Greeks, the Spartans would have encouraged homosexuality among soldiers (for the same reasons as the Greek army). The chance of this is even higher because the Spartan life revolved greatly around being a soldier, more than that of a Greek; and the Spartan army spent more time together.

"In the city-state of Athens, the gay pattern of sexuality involved inter-generational 'sponsoring' or Mentoring; a mature or well-established man would take the sons of his neighbors and friends "under his wing" to teach them not only about the birds and the bees, but also about living as a free man outside the family unit. Sex between these Mentors and their Charges was expected to be largely 'touching;' massage, wrestling, bathing together and laying naked together while enjoying each other's bodies until they each ejaculated. Anal sex was considered 'socially incorrect' in Athens; mutual masturbation was the Athenian Way.

Not so, in Sparta! Sparta was a strongly military city-state; every citizen was expected to participate in the defense of the realm. Boys were actually raised in military barracks, acting as orderlies, housekeepers, waiters AND sexual companions of adult officers and soldiers who guarded the Spartan society. Anal as well as oral sex was common, though probably most often by mutual consent. It is an interesting tidbit of military history (red-facedly admitted to by even the stodgiest homophobic military historians) that the Spartan Army was universally considered the best and most courageous in the entire Hellenic world. Plato, writing in his famous "Republic," used the Spartan Army as the model for his Ideal Society.. in which gay sexuality would be the "glue" the holds-together the military of his Utopia. In his opinion, the LOVE between the men-at-arms of Sparta gave them extra reason to protect and defend their own troops (for who would NOT fight for the life of one's Lovers?!)"


Since both countries were pagan, one can see the influence of Christianity today, that uses the Buy Bull to support their predjudices and bigotry against gays. Solitary

[Solitary]

Another victory for gays in America---Home Of The Brave.

(CNN) -- A school district in Mississippi has agreed to pay a recent high school graduate $35,000 in damages and adopt a policy prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, according to a statement released Tuesday by the American Civil Liberties Union.

It's a real shame that bigotry and prejudice has to still be fought in a free country where everyone is considered to be equal in the eyes of the law. What are the people that are so against other people that are different so afraid of?  Quote: " District officials said in the settlement offer that they didn't believe they violated McMillen's rights.
  What? They don't think gays, along with blacks and atheists, have civil liberties. What a bunch of bigots showing their ignorance by abusing their power.  Solitary

[holycrap111]

I dont care, whether Im fighting beside a gay guy/girl/chimpanzee or a hippo with a spiked collar being ridden by a transexual drag queen, lol. Only thing that matters to me, is that they be willing to pull their weight ... be good at whatever function they're responsible for. Be effective in their role in the situation.

Have known some gay guys, that were nothing nice ... if someone ticked em off, or pushed the wrong button. I wouldnt want to tangle with them. lol, even knew some alternative lifestyle guys ... who would intentionally go looking for gay bashers. Get them to pick a fight and then kick the living crap out of them. ( aka: straight bashing, that's funny dont care who ya are, lol. ) Its a diverse and often strange world we live in huh ?

More importantly though ... would be the underlining cause of the conflict. I dont want to fight, kill or die ... for something stupid, evil or dishonorable. Which pretty much leaves me out of most wars. Past, present and future ... if I can help it.

Which really is always going to be a personal choice. Cause there's no authority in this world ... that can make me shed innocent blood, or fight/die to make people with too much money and power already ... richer and more powerful. They can kiss all ova ma azz. Sighs couple more lofty self righteous observations.

1. Bible does have some valid parts ... ie: "What does it profit a man/woman to gain the whole world, and forfeit their soul."

2. If you arent willing to suffer for your beliefs .... then you dont have any.

[holycrap111]

Interesting side notes:

Let us refer to the actual law of the land ... US Constit, 1st amendment ( hmmm, mustve thought it was pretty important, if they made it the 1st one huh ? ) Anyway, one of the rights american citizens are entitled to under the 1st amendment ... is freedom of religion.

Religion, though you have to go through a lengthy federal legal process to get it federally recognized. In fact in the US ... satanism is a federally recognized religion .... ummm divide and conquer folks. ) But a religion at its heart, is the spiritual beliefs of a person. Under the 1st amendment, you are allowed to believe whatever you choose. And its to be treated with equal legal standing, as compared to any other recognized religion.

Many existing religions ... and the people that believe in whole or in part. In many of the established religious doctrines. Are not only legally entitled, they are in fact morally obligated. To refuse to take part in any shedding of blood, on behalf of any war, or conflict their corrupt govt has entered into.

ie: Thou shall not kill .... Hmmm seems pretty clear what that means to me. It doesnt say thou shall not kill .... unless X, Y, Z or K. So I find it hard to believe that this statement and its intent can be misinterpreted by anyone ... with a 1st grade reading comprehension level or above.

What Im saying, is that any person who either believes this spiritual system ... or even a hybrid of that belief system. Has the legal basis to refuse to go to any war ... the scum in govt declare.

[Solitary]

Some people do refuse to go to war, even with conscription---which a lot of idiots want to bring back. I personally want a professional army protecting "me", not a bunch of National Guards Men or Woman. Who is watching our borders, which is their job, while they play soldier in a foreign country? The very best army in ancient times were the Spartans who were all gay. In fact this is where the title corporal comes from---he was the one that satisfied the Sargent. Of course this doesn't happen now even when the corporal is female---I think!  Solitary

[holycrap111]

Happens more than ya think ... ah like I said, Im getting pressed for time on summin. They intentionally infected "our" I use that term loosely. Cause they arent fighting for me, or anything I support.

They sold saddam/iraq weaponized biologic agents ( aka: WMD ) and then had our military attack him. Knowing he was going to use them. Not going any further into that ... people need to do their own research.

Some spartans may have been bi, but the majority were overwhelmingly hetero by preference,  ... that's where the little spartans came from. They preferred women, though when women werent available ... some of them had a different outlook on sexual gratification. Spartans also used to kidnap their women ... kill babies with even minor physical defects and kill a slave, as a part of their rite of manhood. So holding them up as the quintessential example of what a warrior class/soldier should be, is insane. Though yes, they were an extremely formidable fighting force.

When they took the field for war. Along with bunches of others through-out history. Like I said, wouldnt be opposed to having a gay person on the team. Provided they are ready, willing and able to pull their weight. And their skills match or exceed my own.

Not going to even try to express my views, opinions etc on any military. Particularly the US military. Other than to say, they are acting like traitors to their country ... and are defilers of sacred oaths. Which in my bk, lumps them in with other traitorous scum of the earth. When you take a pledge to become a US soldier

( particularly the branch that is near and dear to my heart. USMC ... the motto is semper fi, that isnt just supposed to be empty words. It is supposed to be a way of life, and an overwhelming guideline and dedication to how soldiers in that branch conduct themselves. Meaning up to death ... I will lay my life down, to protect my country, its people, our freedoms and beliefs. I will not in any way compromise the beliefs I hold dear. Cause to do so, makes me less than nothing. Far less than an honorable or dignified person.)

 Anyway, part of the deal, ... when you enter the US military ( or govt office usually. ) is you take a pledge. I swear to uphold the constitution ... to protect my country against enemies ... foreign and DOMESTIC etc. Anyway, they are not living up to that oath. So I cant in good conscience wish death on them, but neither can I feel a sense of fellowship, or connection with them anymore either.

Some vocations imo, are sacred callings, teacher, doctor, scientist, priest and SOLDIER ( or even cop ) These are more than jobs, they are supposed to be everything good and pure represented within humankind, held to the highest standards of conduct.  Instead of the sick joke they've been twisted into. Anything less, should be unthinkable and intolerable.

[holycrap111]

lol and this video sums up many of my feelings on the topic in general. I accept and agree that freedom ... means to a reasonable extent, that others freedoms should be respected, might not agree with what they do/ want to do. But as long as it doesnt harm the me ( or the people I care about ) or seriously undermine the common good. Then I endorse their right to do what they want and believe whatever they feel is right. That works both ways of course.

funny song, agree with many of the sentiments in it.

[holycrap111]

One more as well ... while were debating patriotism and protection of freedoms
and american ideals.

Next time you go to the local walmart, ya might want to play a game. ... I like to call it, find the made in america game. Here's how it goes, ya go around and grab up all the lil patriotic merchandise you can lay hands on. ( this game can also be played pretty much anywhere else with the same results. )

The little red, white and blue knick knacks, flags, buttons ... things with led lights that flash red, white and blue. Then turn them over and read where they were made .... made in china, made in china, made in china. Then order a flag from a mail order catalog or online. When it arrives, work yourself up into a patriotic frenzy. Lovingly unwrap it, twirl it around and post it proudly for your neighbors to see. So that they know what a patriotic person lives in that dwelling. But before ya do, find the tag on it that says made in China, lol.

Dont even consider myself an american anymore for real. Its nothing to be proud of, nothing noble etc.

Hell they even brainwash people in the US military to fight with other branches of the US military. The army looks down on the other branches, the other branches look down on them etc so forth.

Cause part of the training, is teaching recruits that anyone who isnt a part of that branch, is pretty much subhuman ... esp the US civilians. The other branches may be viewed as inferior, but at least they're soldiers. The american public are supposed to be the scum, that scum scrapes off its shoes.

Justification for such brainwashing, its supposed to instill a great pride and sense of morale among the troops. How good we are, how great we are, how honorable and noble and strong !!!

Hmmm odd, that they try to teach soldiers, the people they are supposed to defend and protect are lowlifes. Not really worthy of either defending or protecting. Although that opinion, really does have a basis imo. Anyone who would run out and buy an american flag made in China ... ya know ? lol. Land of weak, stupid, hypocritical fools and sheep, in so many ways ... really is sad. Cause those chances to live free, have some dignity and respect etc. Really were paid for in blood folks. At least that part of the story isnt PC BS.

Though pretty much as usual the average person views on the world. And the actual reality of the world we live in .... two totally different thangs.

lol, anyway ... no offense folks, this subject strikes a nerve ... will sthu.

End rant:

[holycrap111]

PS, also interesting military historic fact. Percentage of the US population that took active part in the 1776 era war with the british to "win" america's freedom ? .... around 4%.

And back then the population was numbered in millions, not 100's of millions.
Majority of people were either loyalists, or didnt have the ballz to fight for their country against the british.

Based upon this fact, how many american's are honestly entitled to honorably claim they even are americans ? Ummm well .... in my bk the descendants of that 4% .... the rest ( including the tidal waves of immigrants, are making false claim to that dignity.) Though people who were born here and possess the same spirit to appreciate and respect the suffering of those real americans, those who are willing to do the same and truly appreciate what those people accomplished. Could with a clear conscience claim entitlement. Again, pretty much excludes most the US pop.

So the US military isnt protecting or defending chit. Their fighting an unjust war ... against a people who never attacked their country. Running up trillions of debt the people ( unborn ) will be held responsible for. And fighting, killing 100's of thousands of innocent people. For causes which run contrary to everything the country is supposed to stand for.

Sighs, ok now Im really done and have to focus dammit. FOCUS !!!

[Solitary]

I should have said that I was talking about the Special forces or Sacred Band.  

Plutarch records that the Sacred Band was made up of male couples, the rationale being that lovers could fight more fiercely and cohesively than strangers with no ardent bonds. According to Plutarch's Life of Pelopidas, the inspiration for the Band's formation came from Plato's Symposium, wherein the character Phaedrus remarks:

And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?

The Sacred Band originally was formed of picked men in couples, each lover and beloved selected from the ranks of the existing Theban citizen-army. The pairs consisted of the older "heniochoi", or charioteers, and the younger "paraibatai", or companions, who were all housed and trained at the city's expense and fought as hoplites. During their early engagements, in an attempt to bolster general morale, they were dispersed by Gorgidas throughout the front ranks of the Theban army.

After the Theban general Pelopidas recaptured the acropolis of Thebes in 379 BC, he assumed command of the Sacred Band, in which he fought alongside his good friend Epaminondas. It was Pelopidas who formed these couples into a distinct unit: he "never separated or scattered them, but would stand [them with himself in] the brunt of battle, using them as one body."They became, in effect, the "special forces" of Greek soldiery, and the forty years of their known existence (378–338 BC) marked the pre-eminence of Thebes as a military and political power in late-classical Greece.

The Sacred Band under Pelopidas fought the Spartans at Tegyra in 375 BC, vanquishing an army that was at least three times its size. It was also responsible for the victory at Leuctra in 371 BC, called by Pausanias the most decisive battle ever fought by Greeks against Greeks. Leuctra established Theban independence from Spartan rule and laid the groundwork for the expansion of Theban power, but possibly also for Philip II's eventual victory. Solitary

[Solitary]

  THX for the vid. My wife's nephew came to visit last night and I showed him a video of two of the most gorgeous  girls you have ever seen, petite, with perfect bodies with small perfect breasts and bottoms. He was really getting into them and I asked him if he would do the two of them. He said he would pick the dark haired one, and I could have the blond. I told him I don't think so. I let him watch the video and left him alone to enjoy.  I heard him yell after a while, and he said he was goimg to puke--------they were both young boys. He! He! I had this happen to a friend of mind that was in the navy on submarines when I met him in joint forces.  Semper Fi! He came back after 6-9 months? after being under the Artic, and picked up a girl at a bar in SF and he made out with her for hours and when he reached under her dress he found Peter.    After six months being locked up with all men and turned on to the point he was going to explode he said he didn't care.      He! He!  Solitary

[holycrap111]

lol outstanding,

But your topic also brings up a thought. The majority of men/women in the military are hetero. Yet another reason I hate Political correctism. It really has turned america into a free for all/divided mess. When people look at the subject from a pro-rights standpoint. They consider the gay persons views, ie: they should have a chance to serve etc blahblah.

But what about the rights of the majority in that situation. It makes them uncomfortable, they dont like it etc blahblah. What about their feelings, views and rights ? Dont think individual rights should outweigh the views of the majority, or the common good. Cause imo, freedom is the right to do something, ... but the common sense not to use it as an excuse to justify being able to do anything ya want. So someone should be free to believe they are a chicken and walk around pecking the ground with their noses and not be persecuted for it.

Same time though, dont feel they should be treated like they're normal. If I see someone walking around squawking like a chicken and pecking the ground. I'm not going to try to kick their butt cause they're different. But Im not going to treat them as if their outlooks on life are valid either.

Same thing for freedom of speech you can say it, but imo use common sense and some standard of decency when employing the right. Cause rights that are abused, taken for granted or not protected, tend to slip away.

Freedom isnt free. etc blahblahblah.

Ya know how I feel about it, I dont really care about someone's sexual orientation in any setting. As long as they respect my tastes and are effective in their role. Have had some good friends who were gay. But that's one subject I side with religions ( well ya have to pick and choose, lol. )

Dont think lil boys should be taught its ok to be lil girls and vice versa. Little boys imo, should be raised to be good, decent, honorable and strong men. Not sissified, feminized versions of males ( aka: what they're being turned into.) Same for women, though again feel both sexes are being subjected to vicious, malicious and damaging social/societal conditioning. Cause many/ if not all of the core values and beliefs that make up good people imo, apply to both sexes.

I believe that at the heart of PC views of the world. The real essence of it .... is none of us are allowed to believe strongly in anything anymore. Cause anything I say, believe etc ... there are going to be other people who disagree with it, or feel the opposite.

Therefor our beliefs and outlooks cancel each other out. Since we are both entitled to equal treatment. And by this ... neither of our beliefs are respected. They've turned freedom ... into enough rope to hang ourselves.

This country isnt united, only people united in it anymore. Are the greedy scumbags at the top of the heap. The people are shattered, separated by race, religion, philosophies, sexual orientations, tax brackets, lol and just about everything else imaginable. aka: divide and conquer ... Should probably just go ahead and change the countries name to the divided states of america.

So in my mind, the majority arent comfortable living in close contact with people who are homo. If a gay person really wants to serve in the military, they always had the option. Even before the dont ask etc. All they ever had to do, is keep it to themselves.

which imo is how it should be, their sexual taste shouldnt into the equation anyway. I mean if they want to sexually harass same sex peers. Or strut around in panties and a bra, wearing lipstick ... then they dont have a place in a military operation anyway.

The poor brainwashed ( traitor by proxy ) service men/women have enough problems and things to deal with. With their command system being as black as a witches heart already.

lol, only fighting the average general does ... is fight their way to the front of the all you can eat buffet. OMG, only 25 bottles of champagne ??!!! OMG ... sighs ... war is hell for a general, lol.

Know I said, wasnt going to type my opinions but meh ...

They are not "my" military, they dont for me ... or in my best interests. In fact what they're doing is treasonous. They're fighting in the interest of those same DOMESTIC enemies they swore to defend the country against.
Actually fighting to strip away america's rights, freedom and aiding in making the Constitution ( again they swore to enforce ) into a mockery.

And as always in reward for their noble service ( waves flag around, throws confetti ) Our govt/their leaders ... have done them the foulest treachery. aka: gulf war syndrome ... which the DOD still swears in just PTSD. Hmmm veterans families are getting gulf war syndrome too ? Hmmm, didnt think PTSD was contagious folks.

Anyway, same time they are fighting against the interests of their country and for the scum who run it. Against everything they swore their lives to protect and prevent. The politicians are cutting their benefits, pay, trying to extend the tours of service. Slashing veteran health services etc and so forth. Ahhhh yet another noble war, brought to us by central bankers and traitors in high places.



And besides this latest joke, isnt even a farkin war. More like a bottomless cash machine for defense companies and their traitor buddies in office.

ie: "Dick" Cheney ( if ever a person had an appropriate first name, its that f'ing puke. ) Vice president .... former vice anyway, also former CEO of Halliburton ... which if you know anything about that corp ... enough said.

Hmmm Dik, quit a job making a multi-million dollar a yr salary ... for one that pays a few 100k ... make sense to anyone ? He knew, there was alot more money to be made selling out america and its people. Not to mention all that stock and stock options he amassed, plus whatever was in the severance package ... was going to skyrocket, once his buddies in Halli started getting awarded fat, juicy war contracts.

[holycrap111]

Funny parody, although its not really funny ... pretty damn accurate.

2 generals sitting a political function ( plush dinner ) surrounded by mahogany tables with crystal glasses ... mosaic tile floor and beautiful murals.

general 1. Ahhh another one of these things, Im supposed to be deciding what going to happen on operation rampant wolverine and eagle nest 1.

general 2. You seen that new staff aide Betty, man she's got an ass on her.

general 1. Yeah hear Harry is already tagging and bagging her.

general 2. Ah well there's enough of her to go around I say, hey there she is.

general 1. Ya know what they say .... feck em all, let god sort em out !!!

general 2. Hey Betty come over here, we have some really important military things to discuss with you. ( wink ).

[Solitary]

  I don't care~! Who the fuck is Alice? Solitary

[holycrap111]

Ummm who da fuck is Alice ... I guess that could be a valid question/concern ... depending on circumstances, lol.